I go to meet Clive Wolfendale at CAIS, here on Trinity Avenue. CAIS aims to empower positive changes in the lives of people affected by addiction, adverse mental health, unemployment, offending and other life challenges, through a range of services and support delivered by skilled and experienced staff and volunteers.

It is a rather sumptuous building. Over his chair is a jacket with proper gold buttons (acquired, he tells me later, from a charity shop!). On his desk, Clive has a little treasure chest of chocolate bars. I am amused by the Marathon bar inscribed 'Numpty' and think maybe he is from Manchester. It amazes me just what a high proportion of people in Llandudno are from NW England.

Clive offers me the pick of the treasure chest (I eat the numpty, obviously) and he tells me he'd spent 25 years in the police force (yes, Manchester), had left in 2001 and came here until 2009 when he retired. "Why Wales? I’d never set foot in the place as an adult. I was always a bit wary of it really. All I remember in Wales were shabby caravan parks and one night being shoved on top of a caravan with a roll of insulating tape to try to stop the leak. Those were my happy childhood memories of Wales! So I thought, why would I want to come back here? But a job came up and I suppose, the promotion and things that go with it were attractive. But also it was quirky and there were language learning requirements which I quite like, 'coz I like languages.

"The chief at the time was Richard Brunstrom who I knew from Manchester as well, who was and is, quite a character. We had 8 astonishing years not without controversy. We had a different approach to lots of things, road safety, drug enforcement, all sorts of things. If you Google it, even though it’s 15 years ago, you’ll still find the legacy there [ yes, I did, it's interesting!]. It was an extraordinary period really."

[Did something change as a result?]

"Definitely. Certainly changed attitudes towards road safety and saved many lives and casualties in doing so, the evidence was there. Speed camera enforcement was the main thing. We also opened the debate about drug legalization, years before it became a mainstream discussion. It’s complicated, and there are all sorts of reasons that it still doesn’t get a proper debate. I still confront that question now even though my day job is helping people with addiction problems. My day job is essentially unfinished business and an opportunity to do something a bit more thoughtful about drug and alcohol problems in particular.

"CAIS is there to help people in that predicament rather than prosecute offenders. Don’t get me wrong, drug dealers are the scum of the earth, and I would never advocate anyone getting into a drug habit, it’s a really stupid thing to do. But people end up in that situation for all sorts of reasons and getting them out of that is quite difficult. There’s more than a few dealers round here: not as many as Manchester, Wrexham, Cardiff. Some of the drug trade stories descend into mythology: some families are hyped up beyond reality. But there are still some pretty nasty people around."

[Would they still exist if drugs were legalized?]

"Yes, of course they would. Because people will still want to use them for different reasons. It's not a unilateral answer to all the problems, legalizing it, and in some cases it might make it worse, particularly in the short term. But ultimately if people have a vested interest in selling drugs to people then they’ll sell them. And actually the legal trade in drugs is as problematic as the illegal trade.

"So the big pharmaceutical companies have got a vested interest in selling drugs and their local agents are GPs. They are pumping out far too many prescription drugs to people who are actually better off simply talking to somebody or going for a walk. I have written more than once about it: Wales has a particular problem with prescription drugs, not helped by the fact that there are free prescriptions. So this benign policy about making drugs cheaper for people is actually quite damaging. It’s just a vote winner. And the pharmaceutical companies like it because they make money out of it. It’s some remedy isn’t it, I go in feeling wretched, I come out with a bottle of pills which will ultimately make me feel more wretched.

"CAIS started out 41 years ago. Set up by a bunch of thoughtful doctors and church / chapel people who said there’s a big problem with drinking in Wales. And they were right. So it set out to help people with drink problems and then it became drug problems as well. And it bumbled along for a while at that. And then they got a couple of residential units – one in Bangor one in Wrexham; treatment units. Then in the last 10 years it’s diversified into things like helping with mental health, employment support, social enterprises.

"So it’s quite a diverse organization now, working across Wales. This is the global corporate headquarters. So that’s what we do. All under the banner of helping disadvantaged people get a better life.

"CAIS = try, as in rugby, in Welsh. I always describe it as we help people get their personal ball over the line, and we are the 14 other players that help that to happen."

In this section, Clive sets the mood music for our walk. He talks of his insights into the real heart of Llandudno from his many varied and different roles in the town...

"My connection with Llandudno began when I came here in 2001 and they put me up at the Empire Hotel while I was interviewed for the job [Assistant Chief Constable of North Wales Police]. All I remember was seagulls screeching all night, so I didn’t get a wink of sleep. I felt wretched. A good omen I thought.

"So then I came here as a police officer covering North Wales in its entirely. Occasionally I went on patrol in Llandudno with police officers and community support officers around the area, so I got to know it that way.

"But my real connection with Llandudno for the past 15 years – before I came to CAIS [see point 1]- has been mainly through Llandudno Bands. It's all that sort of stuff, the music, where Llandudno resonates most with me. I still am involved in music making in the town and the tourist side of it. I’m on the tourism advisory board for Conwy and a few other things and I’ve been involved on the side-lines with CALL, LLawn and so on. There’s all sorts going on from the very traditional right through to the experimental. I’m probably more on the traditional side of it, not by choice, but because in many respects this is a traditional town.

"It looks like everybody’s idea of a well-kept sea-side resort with a wide promenade and hotels of various types, boarding houses and landladies and parades of shops with tea rooms, the Edinburgh Woollen Mill and the occasional arcade. Just the occasional one.

"In fairness it has retained its feel and quality well beyond most resorts. There’s not one, if many, that compare really unless you go to Bournemouth. Eastbourne is shabby really, Blackpool is just a disaster. Rhyl is beyond a disaster zone. Places in England on the East Coast, Cleethorpes, Scarborough, are all a bit shabby. Weston Super Mare, Awful. It's kept it principally because it’s controlled by the Mostyn Estates. It’s not just the town, it's North Wales. I make no judgment on it but it’s astonishing that a guy who is an MP in the 19th Century manages to get his hands on all of this. I like the business manager for Mostyn Estates a lot, we’ve done some nice things together. He genuinely wants the town to do well, because if the town does well, the estate does well. But it's an incredible state of affairs if you look at it objectively that it’s so controlled. But the happy consquence in this case is that the place has been preserved."

[We look at a someone who might be homeless, sitting on the steps of the church].

"So ... it's a lovely place to be homeless." [with a wry smile]

"We [CAIS] have lost the connection to the Churches and Chapels in recent years but I’m trying to reestablish it because it's an important connection and they still hold quite a sway in Wales, and there are a lot of really decent people around the different denominations. CAIS has a service called Cynnal designed to help church people who get into a predicament, because they do, they drink and take drugs like everyone else does; but also trying to develop the idea of spirituality as a therapeutic route.

"We’ve got a conference about it in Bangor next week. People of faith and people from different denominations but also people who are just interested. There are strands of addiction recovery – like AA and 12 Step Recovery – where there’s a spiritual component of that, you have to surrender yourself to something greater. It does work for some people, that’s fine, that’s a connection that we’ve remade.

"There’s an initiative in Cardiff called the Living Room, set up by Wynford Ellis Owen, a great thinker and influencer around this type of agenda in Wales. He had a distinguished career in the media, TV and so on and lost his path for about 20 years, was in a real mess. But he’s come out of it in this way so that is now part of CAIS, a re-connection, a strand, which hasn’t mean a lot to me personally but does to a lot of people."

“You see, one reflection as we are here" says Clive as we cross Mostyn Street

"I spend time in Cardiff and Manchester and London; and when you come back here you can’t help be struck by the age profile of the people walking around the streets of Llandudno.

"It's just an aspect of the town. It is frequented for whatever reason - people are staying here or shopping here or otherwise recreation-ing here - by people who are in their later years. And the town reflects that in lots of different ways."

"On the residential parts [of Llandudno] there are standard socio-economic profiles, families in the estates, and the new-builds further out, and I’m not doing them down, but that’s not Llandudno. This is Llandudno" says Clive as we approach the prom past JC’s discount store and the hotels.

"This is llandudno and the coaches have brought people in from hither and dither. They might well be on the tinsel and turkey tour by now."

[We look across the street and spot a coach parked next to the hotel.]

"Yes! It's the 9th October, and here they are. Probably carols playing on the way down. Now some people might find that intensely depressing, but there’s a market for it. This is Llandudno. And so if you are based here, you have to have some regard to that really.

If we are talking of cultural regeneration in Llandudno, the well intended notion of bringing a more diverse and challenging culture offer here is great but sometimes misses the point that people are not here to look forward, they are here to look back, which is a perfectly decent thing to do because they’ve had long and happy lives and they want to reminisce."

We pass a bus about to off-load. People are being told by the coach driver, where to go to check in, and how straight forward it is.

"A good number of them won’t step out of the hotel." says Clive. "And if they do, it’ll be to visit the Edinburgh Woollen Mill."

[M&S? I ask]

"M&S ? Oh it’s a bit expensive isn’t it?

"I was talking to one of the office staff this morning about Primark and Store 21 in the Victoria Centre. Why on earth do people find these places attractive when they are selling rags made in an Indonesian sweat shop?

"So anyway, we concluded it was because it’s disposable clothing, and young people like to wear things twice and send them to the charity shop. Which is where I get most of my clothing… although I wouldn’t get an ex-Primark garment, to my knowledge anyway"

"So here we are then, as we approach the Promenade. Let’s have a pause and look at what’s on, entertainment wise."

We approach the purpose built hexagonal display boards, covered in posters. All terribly neat and organised.

"You’ll see all the 60s bands, or the ones that are still alive: It'll be the guy that used to be the drummer that is running the band now, rather than the actual band. So it’s all 60s bands or tribute acts or We’ll Meet Again because it’s all about looking back. The Mersey Beetles. Elvis"

We move around the board. There's a notice about the Alice Tours.

"I don’t get this Alice thing." says Clive. "I think it’s an idea that probably slightly overexposed. There’s only so much you can milk from a single story isn’t there? Especially when Llandudno’s connection with the story is very tenuous. We just celebrate someone who’s had a week’s holiday here."

Round the back, I spot a poster which says : "Real Women at it again. One night only. Real Women, Real Stories, Real Laughter. Sponsored by Mooncup".

"That’s a little bit cutting edge there", says Clive.

We arrived at the bandstand.

"So in 2003 I saw an advert in the Daily Post saying the Town Band here hasn’t got a conductor.

"So I, having spent my life in bands and being a frustrated musician - all sorts of bands, brass bands, military bands, swing bands, jazz bands - I went along to see if I could help out, not expecting to get involved really. And I ended up staying as conductor for 12 years."

[Were you trained as a conductor?]

"No. I had just done it for years, so I knew what I was doing, although I’ve not had a single day's tuition in conducting. Not had a single day’s tuition in how to run a charity either but … "

[Where would you stand?]

"I’d stand right here." I take a photo. Sun’s out. A seagull is calling.

"So the thing about this band is it's been going since 1910. There’s a whole history of it that’s in the book I’ve given you [ADD REFERENCE]. There was a demand to cater for the burgeoning holiday trade because of an evening there wasn’t much to do.

"So they commissioned professional bands to come and play throughout the season, and then ultimately they said 'well this is a nuisance, we just want one band to play for the whole season'. So they had a band commissioned from May to September to play for every night on the Prom.

"They were paid out of collections, a small grant from the Town Council to pay for the conductor, but the rest of the band were paid out of the contributions. Look at the photos. It’s carried on unbroken, that tradition, ever since. And I’m part of that tradition. There’s only been 4 conductors prior to me which is astonishing in that length of… the first one was 40 years then a couple of 20 years. In fact the guy who is doing it now is the guy who was doing it before me. I just I couldn’t carry on because of the commitment.

"So even then, throughout the summer, 2 nights a week, I’d be here on the band stand. And I’d have to say that on the right evening, a mellow, early summer evening, when the light was good, the air was still and all the deck chairs were out there are few things I could find more pleasurable. And if we had a good band out and we are playing lots of tunes that people can tap their feet to."

[Where are the deck chairs kept?]

"The deck chairs are under that blue tarpaulin." [pointing to a place opposite the Bandstand, between the Prom and the road.]

[Do you still get a crowd?]

"Not as many as there used to be. You can have a bit of banter with the crowd, find out where they are from, have a few gags and so on. "Then on Sunday night, I’d do Songs of Praise, sing along hymns for everybody. But again the opportunity to say a few words, to recite a few poems.

"And one of the local vicars would come along. The good ones would talk for about 3 minutes and leave. The more verbose ones wouldn’t shut up so you’d have to nudge them off, because they’d get far too evangelical and people didn’t’ want to hear it. They just wanted a sing-song and to reminisce, 'Oooh, I remember this one at Sunday school, do you?'.

"So its just such a lovely thing to do. Utterly in tune. And I don’t think you’ll find anywhere, I don’t think you’d find another town in Britain where this tradition still survives and it still happens now. The acoustics are not bad, it’s a solid floor, you can hear it fine. But to be honest it deserves better. There’s no roof, which is a disgrace. The reason for the lack of roof is that when the place was put up, the local hotels objected because it might spoil the view, by having something of that height. I guess the cost too. But it is a nuisance because it can get quite draughty, and of course when it rains it’s hopeless … but the reality is that when it rains no-one comes out to listen anyway.

[IWTH? I ask: "If Wet Town Hall?" the famous 'catch phrase of Waldini in the 50s, where if it was wet, the performers and the whole audience would parade from Happy Valley to the Town Hall]

"If we had a town hall worth its name, we would. Occasionally we’d put stuff on the town hall. I did one season of film nights, where I’d dress up in various film characters and play the appropriate music."

[While you were still in the police?] "Yeah, it was, yeah".

"I don’t conduct the town band anymore, I took it through to its centenary. We had a wonderful centenary, commissioned pieces, a concert in Venue Cymru, I took ‘em to France and all sorts."

[Can the Bandstand be used for other kinds of music?]

"When did I finish? Two thousand and … 14, 15 I finished. But my real personal interest in music is Jazz and Swing. So I’ve set up the Llandudno Swing Band which is a Glenn Miller type band, which people love. Again, it’s looking back, war time stuff, Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square, Glenn Miller and all that stuff. So we play that on here as well. And people love it.

"So you can do other things on here and people do. But essentially it’s a band stand and people want a band really. And if you get a decent band and decent weather you get a decent crowd. I saw it used as part of LLawn one year, they were making music with bicycles

"Yeah, it was fun for an afternoon. But it’s not the future. Not for Llandudno. Nothing wrong with a bit of retro. I play a lot of what is considered to be modern music. Often members ae not that keen on it, but I pointed out to them that if we play Beatles, that’s 50 years old now. That’s what older people grew up with, not Victorian stuff. No-one remembers Gilbert and Sullivan anymore, so it depends on what you mean by old.

"Someone approached me the other day, Rhos on Sea, to build a band stand. I’m happy to advise, but the real challenge will be having a band to go in it. Even the Band in Llandudno is struggling because it is so difficult to put a band of 25 players out that know what they are doing, and of course the interest in doing that is dwindling. So it’s a real challenge. What the future will hold I don’t know"

We start to walk along the Prom, heading West towards the Cenotaph [War Memorial, Clive corrects me later – "Strictly speaking for England and Wales, only the memorial in Whitehall, London, is the cenotaph".].

"This sweep of promenade is quite astonishing really." says Clive. "I don’t know anywhere else in the UK that possesses this. It still deserves its name as the Queen of Resorts, not because it’s got any better but because the others have got a sight worse.

"For me, I could walk down here with a thousand different memories of things we’ve done on here. All sorts of parades.

"One in particular sticks out, part of Llawn, the first one we did [2012]. A guy called Marc Rees, who I have an immense amount of respect for, his approach,is competence combined with tongue in cheek which is where it needs to be. He got this full size aeroplane and dragged it around Wales.

"It ended up here, on a Saturday afternoon. Up near the war memorial. The idea was that it would be pulled along the Promenade here by a rugby team that they’d organized with a band marching in front to a specially commissioned piece of music.

"And it was clearly the most ridiculous idea anyone has ever had. And I thought this is brilliant! "The thinking was impeccable. There are some magnificent photographs you can still find around of this thing..." [this photo is one, for example].

"...There were a couple of hiccups with it. The piece that was commissioned was utterly unfit for a brass band. So I had to rewrite it from top to bottom. And then secondly, I had enormous skepticism from the band, who were traditional brass band players, and whose perception I suppose was tarnished by the excruciating nature of the piece. But also they couldn’t see how on earth it was going to work. So I had to chivvy them along.

"So when they got here, we discovered that the rugby team that had been commissioned had not actually been commissioned so there was no one around to pull the aeroplane.

"So together with Marc we had to chivvy up around 50 members of the public to pull this aeroplane down the prom. And in all fairness, we found some willing souls. The health and safety implications of this whole thing are absolutely horrifying but that’s what we did. They dragged this plane down the Promenade down to the band stand and we played this piece to accompany it. And Marc was dressed up like he would be, like an airline pilot with a bunch of 60s Pan Am air hostesses with him. And that’s what we did. So that’s one weird memory of many we’ve had on here"

"The Hydro was a spa hotel. It still is a hotel. I’ve played there. It’s a huge building. In fairness and I think the owners would agree, it needs some TLC, but it does attract lots of coach tours.

"I have played in there, a series of concerts in the late summer in the last couple of years and I’ve done some hard gigs in my time, but playing in there on a Sunday night is right up there.

"Even me with my inexhaustible repertoire of gags has fallen on deaf ears. They can’t wait to get you off to get the Bingo. The evening is about not being able to wait for the possibility of winning £7.50 on the Bingo sweep. It happens. You have to work around the bingo.

"Any attempt to introduce irony or cultural references is just doomed. In fairness the people have paid very little money for these trips and they know what they want when they book it; and what they want is roast beef and Yorkshire pudding on a Sunday and a comfortable room near the lift and bingo. And that’s what they come for. So again, you have to cater for the market really. But I have to say from a personal point of view as a frustrated would be entertainer, I find it very hard venue"

[See point 19 for more on the realities of staying at the Hydro: Guess how much a 5 day full board trip from Oxford is, including 2 excursions into Snowdonia...? ]

"We had the biggest jam tart making competition in the world here once too. But that was an Alice thing and wasn’t entirely brilliant."

I ask Clive if he has performed in Happy Valley?

"I have. Yep. On the little bandstand there. Which was a strange thing to build. I’m not sure what its about really. I’ve taken small groups up there and played different things. Because I’m a band terrorist really, a flashmob band. I’ve done it on Bog Island too. Just to get things going, because there’s nothing really."

I ask Clive what he thinks of the Pier Pavillion site, and what to do with it?

"There are some fabulous pictures of the Pier Pavillion in its heyday, the band used to play there and there was a resident orchestra and so on.

And you have to be realistic in terms of what people will regularly attend because a lot of people will simply stay in their hotel, and are forced to do so by the hoteliers who – the whole meal times and drinks routine means they can’t go out.

So you’d have to have some kind of live-streaming into the hotels?

"No, you’d have to stage rescue parties and raids to go and liberate people.

"There is definitely an entertainment void and a cultural gap here that does need filling. There isn’t enough to do when its raining and there isn’t enough to do in the evening.

"I’ve been trying to do my bit with events and musical stuff and some of it works and some of it doesn’t. Venue Cymru theatre spaces are huge and its very very expensive. Limited community spaces are also limited , which is why the Tabernacl project is hoping to make that a more usable space. Did have my first show there, took my quintet there in the first Llawn, and played some jazz standards which seemed to work well.

"Some of the churches have been the real centres of entertainment in the season with weekly choir services and so on, St johns and Trinity.

"Then there’s Tea in the Town Hall, seaside reminiscences as the posters you’ve seen. But there’s scope for a lot more because there int’ enough to do here.

"I’ve had discussions with Edward because if you plonk a big casino in the middle of this place you would transform it. It is a bit radical and I hate myself for saying it, because I spend my days trying to get people off addictions and gambling is the worst addiction of all.

"The quickest way to ruin. It’ll probably take 20 years for a drink habit to kill you, maybe 10 years for a drug habit. But if you get a gambling habit within 2 weeks you can ruin your life, and that of your family. So it’s a problem.

"But the right sort of gambling, with the right sort of regulation attracting overseas visitors in the way that the chique French resorts do and so on, would utterly transform the economics here for the hotels and everything else"

As we walk back along the prom, we talk of where next with tourism in Llandudno.

"There is a new tourist economy, which isn’t about Llandudno but about North Wales, the new adventure economy, the surf snowdonia, the zip wire, walking in Snowdonia and all that which people like. The middle class idyll, the Centreparcs on the cheap, its all the cycling stuff ...

[A couple of people cyle past us, shouting excitedly at each other]

"...not like that, where you cycle a mile on the flat and think you’ve done your bit. Up in the hills. But people need a place to stay. And so if we could tune into that a little bit.

"It's sunnier here, the climate is remarkably different here, and the beach too, so people could stay here as their base, or combine the two. Except the beach is not really up to it. Because they’ve dumped all these stones here.

"When I first came here it was sandy in large parts. But because the council reakoned it was subject to erosion by the storms – and it was – I’ve seen stones washed onto the prom after a couple of big storms. But solution coud have been a number of things, it wasn’t about destroying the beach.

That’s the only bit of beach left now, up there." [Pointing up to a tiny patch of sand next to the Pier]

"Now can you imagine how this would look if it was all sand?

"And its quite possible to do that, because they did in Colwyn Bay by putting the right levels of tidal protection there, and pumping hundreds of thousands of tons of sand, dredging it up. In the summer in Colwyn Bay, the beach is packed, but there isn’t a single place for them to stay or anything for them to do.

"And yet Llandudno has just for some ridiculous reason been subject to this vandalism by dumping a load of stones on the beach. Needs some analysis and some options based on the evidence and science. It was all done hastily and without looking at it properly. What they have produced is an eyeshore really.

"People don’t come for a beach holiday now. A beach holiday is impossible now, apart from West Shore, where it’s a fabulous beach, a bit windswept, but there’s nothing there"

[Clive doesn't mention the kite surfing I'd seen on the West Shore, and the provision of showers for them, as discussed at the Friends of the West Shore meeting I'd attended. Perhaps there is some adventure to be had in Llandudno after all?]

"So its completely – it’s a really a strange way of thinking. It’s a resort without a beach. It’s going to take millions and millions to sort it out. But I believe one day it wil be because in the end the economics will stack up. But it was a hurried and unnecessary decision, from what I know of the evidence.

"I’m always an advocate of following the evidence. People will tell you of the floods about 20 years ago that consumed the town. But in the meantime you have to put up with this. I remember it wasn’t that long ago the Imperial here ... [we are now walking past the Imperial Hotel] ... had a sand castle building competition. Now you’d have to build a pile of rocks.

"If you look, the stones that are laid are even bigger than the ones on top. Others have been washed up on top. Its just getting higher and higher. So something will have to be done.

"With the right engineering, and it would have to be the right engineering, you could have a beach here and that would be great and it would transform the place."

We look at the concrete overhang of the bandstand, where there is now nothing but pebbles. Was that sand right up to here, I ask?

"Yes, it was, yes."

I ask Clive what he thinks of Tudno Castle. Once a landmark of the town and currently all boarded up and awaiting demolition before being rebuilt and turned into a Premier Inn with a Beefeater.

"They promise to rebuild it more or less as it was. Beefeater are quite popular. I suppose there is a place for Premier Inn. In the summer there’s no problem with filling the hotels and guest houses as they’ll tell you.

"It's about creating something out of season, which is why they are doing Tinsel and Turkey tours."

Is that why you are supporting things like Llawn and Culture Action Llandudno?

"Yes. So the Llawn project is to get something out of season. I’m involved in – I’m a partner in - the Llandudno in the Jazz Festival in Bodafon Fields. Again that’s mainly retrospetive, its been going jazz from 40s, 50s, 60s, there is some cutting edge jazz but mainly looking back. It goes down well. It’s on in the summer, but trying to do something in February. We are going to have to be fairly broad in the offer to cast the net wide."

I ask Clive what he's most proud of.

"My time in North Wales Police, I doubled the detection rate and halved the crimes. We solved twice as many percentage wise, and in that 8 year period, the amount of crime halved because we detected it. I’m fairly robust in not interfering or opining about what they are doing now, because I’ve moved on, I’m happy with what I did and that’s it.

"But it was my first choice career to be a performer. I’m a triumph of confidence and front over ability. That’s been my entire life, I get away with it. Had I tried to be an orchestral musician I’d have crashed and burned. I’m so glad I didn’t do it because it’s a tremendous career. The people I knew did do it, all credit to them, have found it hard. Whereas there I was swanning around being a police officer for 34 years by contrast a doddle really.

"My life is now continuum of work and stuff, music, community stuff, all intermingled and that’s how I like it really.The bad thing about it is there’s no down time, but on the plus side, if one aspect isn’t going particularly well, there’s something else to focus on that’s going a bit better. I sit on loads of different groups and things. I try and do them justice. There’s nothing worse than people who don’t get stuck in, people who put their names to something and not get stuck in that’s ridiculous."

I ask Clive about the Third Space, at the Great Orme Brewery. It's a new performance space.

"I like it. I've done anumber of shows there that went well. It’s a nice quirky space. A bit small."

What about Cafe Providero I ask?

"Ah you see, you are getting sucked into this hip thing, that’s a problem. 'Oh let’s go to this smart coffee shop that’s had crowd funding, or go to the third space that seats 20 people and has strange acts'. That’s great, its lovely, but Llandudno is the Hydro and the Bingo and Ken Dodd and the Edinburgh Woollen Mill.

"So don’t get side tracked by something less relevant. It isn’t the future of Llandudno in my view. It's good to have quirky on the edge, to nudge people along. Which is why I like Marc Rees because he gets that completely, you can’t take people too far and but it its fun trying sometimes but to over egg it is a big mistake. That’s my view.

"I have endless discussions with Sabine and Edward. I think they do get it but their mission is to expand the artistic endeavour and get a platform for new artists which is great, but I just wish sometimes rather than pandering to their own flights of fancy these folks would actually sit back and think about who is looking at it.

"Look down the street. What is the point of reference for people on the street, coming into that corner there? Their point of reference is that they are spending their Saturday night watching strictly and reading the Daily Mail.

There’s more that can be done for them and its right to do that. And round the edges you can put some thought provoking stuff in. Because the gulf is enormous between some of the more fringe stuff and where people are coming from and their expectations and their experience...."

Clive says goodbye and challenges me to go to the Edinburgh Woollen Mill and along the Prom to get a taste of what he's talking about.

I am quite taken with his strong view about working with the 'traditional' Llandudno rather than where I'd been naturally drawn to, the arts and culture based regeneration. So off I go...

On my way from Clive to find WHM, I come across Chris outside M&S. He's been homeless in Llandudno for 3 years. Originally from Deiniolen, the village next to where I live, Chris is welsh-speaking and I've chatted to him quite a bit during the time I've been wandering Llandudno's streets.

He doesn't know where Edinburgh Woollen Mill is. Nor do I.

Eventually I find it. It is relatively empty, not the thriving place I expected, full of people from tours. I have a brief chat to one of the customers, we are looking at a pair of ceramic rabbits. Salt and pepper pots. He doesn't think they are Alice in Wonderland themed because there are two of them. "I think you are just mean to buy them" he says.

The music collection confirms Clive's view of who this place is serving, and their taste in music. I find myself hovering over the tarten rugs, thinking they might be cosy. I am after all, nearly 50....

Clive had told me of the Troop Cafe during our walk. I'd come across it one one of my early walks, and loved the corrugated iron building, and the eclectic clientele. Clive said:

"There's a strong connection with veterans in Llandudno. I’ve got my own place just in the Coach carpark, that’s now called the Troop Café.

"It was CAIS' first social enterprise, Caffi Cais, and then we rebranded it, based on one in Milwaukee, in America, Winsconsin, and we actually skype linked to it for the opening.

"It’s now our base for our veteran services, we’ve now got 6 or 7 social enterprise across Wales. It was actually the Tin Tabernacl that started its life in the religious revival in the 20th century.

"There’s some photos of people getting married in there.

"Then it became a really nasty café and then it fell into disrepair. So I convinced Conwy Council to let us have it to serve the coach park and then it was our first social enterprise. Just last year we won the prize for social enterprise of the year".

More information about the Troop Cafe (from their website):

We are selling affordable, quality light bites, cakes and drinks to the public. All profits from Troop Café are invested back into Change Step which provides peer support to the military veteran community.

As a social enterprise, Troop Café also provides a variety of catering and hospitality training, work experience and support to local military veterans and volunteers. Much of our training is accredited and, supported by CAIS and Change Step, we can offer further learning and development opportunities and assistance in seeking employment.

The café is filled with military memorabilia, and even offers weekly specials including Egg Banjos and Bully Beef Stew!

We are open Tuesday to Sunday from 10.30am – 6pm. Our Aim Our aim at Troop Café is to serve our local community by offering affordable, quality refreshments to the public, while providing catering and hospitality training to military veterans and volunteers.

The stones sound lovely here. While I was visiting them, someone I'd worked with in Cheltenham, more than 20 years before, recognised me while I was recording the sound and movement of the waves. He was staying at the hotel on the Orme and taking part in the Union conference.We looked out at the windmills, and talked of how we'd done all that 'visioning' of a sustainable future back then, and windmills were a big part of the vision. Now the windmills were in place. But nothing really has fundamentally changed. There we were, 25 years on, standing on pebbles that were trying to help deal with the effects of an ever-increasing climate disintegration.

The next person I met was a lady sitting in one of the glass-less prom shelters. These shelters, once a draw for visitors, now stand as dull, functional (or semi functional) concrete blocks along the Prom. Chris, the homeless guy with the Big Issue pitch outside M&S sleeps on their benches at night. Apparently, if he gets found there, he'll be in trouble.

It has struck me for a while - well, since Sabine Cockrill from Culture Action Llandudno mentioned the idea - that a whole lot more could be done with these shelters. And following my conversations with Clive, I wonder if things could be done in a way that is good for the 'traditional' tourists, AND the 'new arts/cultural' mob, AND for the homeless.

"Nice bit of sunshine!" she calls over to me, as I walk past. "If you just get out of the wind for a moment".

I walk over to sit with her, and notice that the ugly shelter does give a surprising amount of protection despite having no glass. "Ooo, I hadn’t realized there isn’t any glass." she says. I ask her if she is here on holiday.

"Yes, I'm from Marsden, Oxford. We are in that hotel along there, I think it’s the … I don’t know, um..."

The Hydro? I suggest, thinking of Clive's prediction.

"Uh yes, The Hydro, yes. A bargain holiday. It’s a group called Alpha and we get 5 days full board, 2 excursions and they really are good, the driver we got, he won the driver of the year award last year, so he takes you where you need to go to see the mountains. £184 all in."

Bargain!

"Yes, the food is really good. The only problem is you have a lot of inconvenience in the coach journey you have to pick up at Abingdon, Wantage, Didcot. And on the way home we’ll be near Oxford and we’ll have to still go to Reading. But the hotel's not too bad. You know. It’s the same old thing, a few jokes, bingo, a few dances put on by the hotel."

So you don’t have to go out of the hotel for entertainment?

"No, no. And there’s 3 girls staying there and one of them had a guitar, and Sunday evening the entertainment didn't turn up so she sat in the bar and played her guitar. And there’s games, we play Scrabble and there’s lots of things to do."

[This confirms Clive's prediction at point 9 of this walk]

Why choose Llandudno for your holiday?

"When my husband was alive, we were both cyclsts. Then tenting then caravanning. We used to have the caravan in the mountains here, and my sister-in-law wanted to see it, so we came up. We’ve always – it was my husband’s favourite place North Wales. We used to find areas we could go climbin’ and walkin’ and we had a little tiny caravan so we’ve done loads of Wales and parts of Scotland. One of my favourite walks was the Pembrokeshire coast. I loved it all round there. Out of season especially."

So you are here with your sister in law?

"Yes. She’s gone to Snowonia on the coach, and Camarthen I think. Camarthen is it?"

Caernarfon?

"Yeah, that’s it. But we did that last year. A month ago I went down to Porthcawl with the same people. It’s quite nice, a lot of people there. I really hurt my back so I’m being very careful walking."

So what do you think of Llandudno now?

"I think its just the long ... well I suppose it's good, people need this, there’s lots of little electric cars going up and down. But it's so boring. I like little bays and little cosy cliff walks. It’s funny because my next door neighbours, they are young, with twins, and they came up here to do the mountains. Two weekends ago. He said to me, you know, it’s a really boring Promenade, it’s just full of hotels. It’s funny we both kind of reacted in the same way."

[Ha! I think, there is exactly what I was thinking - if Mary is Clive's classic Hydro hotel client, and her neighbours are the new adventure tourists, here they are both wanting more interest on the Prom!]

"We are going home tomorrow. We went to Happy Valley but we wanted to go on the cable car but it was broken down yesterday. I think years ago my husband and I walked up to the very top. I had to, we always looked for difficult things.

"The good thing now I’m saying it’s a boring bay, each side you’ve got a wonderful…[she waves towards each of the Ormes]. To make up for it, haven’t you? The Elephant and the Crocodile they say. The man that’s driving the van yesterday says that’s the crocodile, the top end there, right along. That’s the Crocodile’s nose and that’s his mouth. There’s a walk around there isn’t there? I did that years ago.

[I hadn't heard of this before, but had read that the name the Orme comes from Viking for Sea-Serpent]

"Friends of mine here a fortnight ago saw dolphins off the pier there. The other one is the Elephant but I couldn’t quite… he’s got his trunk in the water and that’s his ear and that’s his eye. It’s a pity his trunk is in the water though isn’t it?

"I originally come from Ireland. The Claddagh. And that was a little fishing village. Near Gallway."

[When I look Claddagh up, i find out that the name originates from cladach, the Irish for 'stoney shore'. Ha! Another link to my walk with Clive.]

"My granddaughter has just started her MA in Plymouth, she’s doing getting rid of plastic in the ocean. She’s studying eartheanocean. They’ve all just gathered, all her friends from Cardiff University, which is nice.

"My daughter is an artist. My son had a residency at Magdalen college in Cambridge. And because I’ve never done anything like that, you know, left school at 14, he kept saying to me, ‘come on, why don’t you come through and stay and come to the meals and I was thinking no, but I did it. I was in – he had a tiny little house in the grounds. He went and stayed there and I stayed in this tiny house. And the archbishop – Rowan something – he was next door and he is there permanently now. And yeah, it was interesting going down and all the old hall lit up with candles.

"I came from the oldest fishing village in Ireland. There’s a book out on the Cladder and when my daughter went over last year, and there was an exhibition and in there was the book on the Cladder, and in there was my grandmother, on her own. They didn’t know who she was, so my daughter told them, and there she was with her black shawl and her basket of fish, and that’s all she survived on. Her husband was a fisherman so she’d be down there selling fish.

In the book is my uncle repairing his fishing net. And of couse they didn’t know who he was. Coz these are photographs of old people. So yeah, it’s interesting. So it’d be lovely today if the old lady in the black shawl could see my children and their children, know what’s happened since then".

"I’m not staying here but in Towyn, you know, Towyn? We always come down here, you know. I come up with my son and daughter-in-law."

I'd found myself walking along the Prom with Ben, after I left Mary. Just like Mary, he immediately struck up a conversation with me. Llandudno really is one of the friendliest towns - visitors and residents alike.

"I’m on me own, so. I used to bring my wife down, we used to love it down ‘ere you know but she got dementia at 65. She had it 8 years. Terrible. We used to come a lot down here in t’old days. There used to be lots of sand. I won’t tell you how many years we've been comin', I’ll give my age away … ha ha. Coz I’m 82!

"I always do this when I come: I leave them [son and daughter in law] goin’ shoppin’. They park up and then I say see you in an hour, and I walk along here to the end and then back again. If they are not there, I’ll carry on up the other end and back again. I love walking.

"My son, he lives in Portugal, with my daughter-in-law. They come over a few times, you know. I don’t go there really - I don’t like the travelling. I’m fine when I’m there but it’s all the travelling you know."

What do you think of Llandudno?

"I love it! Even when Kathleen was ill, I used to take ‘er down ‘ere. The train up the hill is the centre of Llandudno for me. I love that. I like travelling all around, Betws-y-Coed and all those other places all around.

"I’ve got a bad back that’s why I don’t run along here. I used to. But put me back out at work coming down t' ladder, you know. When you live on your own, you know, neighbours are alright but sometimes you never see anyone for a week. So I’m always glad when they come over, you know. I have family but they don’t live in where I live. I live in Horrich, near Bolton. I’ve not been down for a few years. Mike was saying now, he’d tell you all the history. He’s into all that like, you know."

"Anyway, nice to meet ‘ya!"

The photo of of Ben walking away again.

I've tuned into the sounds of the Prom: cars, sirens, walking on pebbles, the wind, waves.

The sound of pram is unusual so I go over to see if the pram-pusher is up for a chat:

Do you often walk down here? I ask her.

"Yeah, just while I’m on maternity really. Just to get a bit… to get some some fresh air, try and get a bit fit. It’s so nice. Not that it’s going very well, ha ha."

It’s nice to meet someone young, most people along here seem to be quite old.

"There’s quite a lot of old people about in’t there? Yeah, I’m only out and about because I’m on maternity. Even if its bad weather, I’ll do a walk. Just up to the paddling pool then just turn round and go back again. I’ve come from the Oval, d’you know where the cricket ground is, that’s where I live.

"So I just came on – where did I come on? Near the Queen’s Hotel, and just gone yeah, gone for a walk down. To the padding poool… no, the park, where the park was, I turned round there, turned round there today. I have to look at the time because I have to get to school for half three."

What school do your children go to?

"San Sior. It’s a lovely school. It’s like animal magic there. They’ve got a few chickens. So it’s a lovely school. I’ve got two there. One’s just, she’s just started full time, and then one in year 5, she’s got another year left there. It’s so nice."

Where will they go after that?

"They’ll go to John Bright’s secondary school, John Bright’s, yeah. I’ve got another one at John Bright’s. I’ve got 4 children altogether."

Do you speak Welsh?

"Because I moved here in secondary school, in the second year, I kind of missed a big gap of learign wWelsh, you know, like at primary school. I learnt it, but not like at the level the children are learning it at school now. They have conversations in welsh now, although they don’t get taught in welsh".

Is it a big shift from San Sior to JB’s?

"Well I was worried, you know, about it, but he’s settled in quite well into it. He’s in the football team so I think that helps, quite a few friends have gone there too. But they do help, they go and visit them in school before they leave and they get taken over to have like a week there before they start in September, so that’s good. But it is a worry because coming from that nice little school."

So how long have you been in Llanduno then?

"Well I’ve been here since I was erm.. well we moved from Warrington originally. My dad moved us here because he just thought this would be a nice place to live, so I moved here when I was about … 14. I hated it at first. I was missing all my friends, and all my family to be honest because not all my sisters move here. I’ve still got family back in Warrington. But now I love it. Yeah, it’s really nice.

"I like the West Shore and the Haulfre Gardens because that’s nice. That’s a lovely place. And the Great Orme. Especially on days like this."

What do you think of Llandudno as a town?

"I think it’s really nice. Erm. I’ve never had any problems or trouble. I think everyone’s nice. It’s a nice community. My son goes to the football club a lot and that’s like a nice place for children to go to, at his age. Just on Maes Du Road, that’s a local football club.

"It’s just a lovely place to live. There’s all sorts to do. We like going down the pier. We like to do that sometimes. Go up the Orme. Even just going to the beaches, like the West Shore. It’s nice. Like on a lovely day, you’d just think you are abroad or something. It does get busy down there, on the West Shore.

That’s the new lifeboat station there. It’s nice isn’t it?"

I agree, and ask if she remembers the beach being more sandy.

"I don’t remember this beach being sand. But I’ve seen pictures of it, and it was just pure sand.

"But I read in the paper, the local paper, a couple of weeks ago, that they are talking about getting rid of some of these stones, and putting sand down, which would be nice. Because there’s only like a little patch, d’you know, you can see it over there. And in the summer, everyone is like, packed on that beach, because everyone wants to get on the sand. It’d be nice if they lifted some of the stones.

"You can understand why, because they are talking about the flooding, that’s why they’ve done it, but… I don’t remember the floods. We lived on the Orme then, behind the Kings Head, so it didn’t really affect us. So I don’t really remember much about that.

"No, it’s nice, it is nice.

"When I go back, I do go back to see my nana, every now and again, to Warrington now, an it’s totally different. It was big before, but now it’s like a massive city, its huge. There’s IKEA, I go there for that, see me Nana on the way back."

So you don’t feel you are living in a town of old people?

"The old people are just holiday makers anyway, aren’t they really? I think it probably makes Llandudno as well, doesn’t it, all the visitors, all the people that are staying in the hotels, all the old people. Especially on this bit, they still seem to come out here."

I walk back to my car parked in Builder Street. Opposite the Great Orme Brewery and the Third Space. I always park in Builder Street, not only because it is free (please don't change that!) but also because it feels more 'real' than the rest of Llandudno. I like it here.

As I walk along, I reflect that I pretty sure now that my thoughts on the first day, that time and space in Llandudno are measured in three units, tea, alcohol and icecream, stands robust. And that these three worlds do collide in some parts of Llandudno. It is like a Venn diagram, with three circles that intersect a bit in the middle. Regeneration is about thinking about where they overlap (eg the Prom Shelters) as well as where they are separate (in the Hydro, or Provideros, or Wetherspoons), and not allowing one to dominate the needs of the other.